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Veyselic Numbers speaks:
Must the numbers in Qur’an be fixed?
Is there a contradiction in Arabic Language, being a BiDirectional Language?…?
Languages such as Arabic, Farsi, Urdu, Hebrew, and Yiddish are referred to as bidirectional (or BiDi) because text is written from right to left, while embedded texts in ‘Western’ languages and numbers are written from left to right.
Now, can this be called a contradiction, or discrepancy? If so, why do we carry this contradiction into Holly Quran? Since there can’t be any contradiction in Holy Quran, can’t we fix all the numbers in Quran pages with Veyselic Numbers?
Note: Veyselic Numbers are Arabic Numbers, written from right to left. For example; In Veyselic Numbers, number ten is .I
Nisa-82: Do they not consider the Quran (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.
Maas Salaam
Veysel Peru
More info about Veyselic Numbers:
Search for the words "Veyselic Numbers" in the WEB
Sahih Baba:
as far as i know the numbers are not veyselic as you say, but they can actually be written right to left.
for example writing 1000, you would start with zero and end with 1.
and if you know numbers in arabic, you will see that they are read from right to left, for example 78 which is read thamaniya (8) wa saba’un (70).
an i have often heard an arab friend make mistakes like saying seventy-eight for 87.
what brought this up?
VeyselicNumbers
What brough this idea up? Veyselic Numbers
It is a bit long story.
2 years ago I got a manic-depressive (manic attack), and first at that time this idea came to me. In fact, I got so excited that I went insane. After that I got a 23 day treatment in a hospital, etc, etc.
Now, let me go further:
How many is Allah?
1
Then so that Allah is 1, what number do you assign to creatures? -1,2,0.0001? No.
0
Allah is 1. The first number is 1. When you will write 2, in binary numbers, a second number called 0 comes to stage. When there are two numbers on stage, the issue of "who is commander, superior, and who is subordinate, less significant" comes to stage. Since (according to Holly Qur’an) right hand side is more superior to left hand side, the zero has to come to left of 1 in the lining. So we must write as binary two (decimal ten) as 01 (Opposite of usual !!!).
As a summary: When you’ll write ten in decimal numbers (and two in binary numbers), 1 must be at the right, and zero must accept the greatness of 1, and zero must stand on the left. We must write 01 (.1)
I call this Veyselic numbers.
The Satan is represented by zero, the Caliph (Adam Aleyhisselam) of Allah may be represented by 1. Then when these two numbers come together, they must be written as 01. Most significant numbers must be on the right, least on the left. Numbers must be written from right to left.
Now: It is too hard to change all the numbers in the world. But I have dream! The correct numbers, Veyselic Numbers, can be used in Qur’an pages. Qur’an can finish the fight of which is superior;
Right
or
Left
Satan must bow in front of Caliph. All numbers in the Qur’an pages can be corrected with Veyselic Numbers. This is a symbolic fight, between Caliph and Satan, between people of left and people of right. Qur’an cannot be bidirectional, bidirectional is cotradiction. In fact numbers are added to it afterwards. Arabs could not resist Hindus, made a big mistake, and make their language bidirectional.
Creatures must prostrate to Allah.
Satan must accept the graetness of The Caliph of Allah.
0 must stand at the left of 1.
If zero decides to try to pass to the right of 1, it will burn. It burns, as Satan is created from fire.
Let us clean the "Bidi" from Quran pages. Let us change all the numbers so that they START FROM THE RIGHT, not left. Because the current situation is not right. I belive sooner or later Holly Qur’an pages will be corrected with Veyselic Numbers, inshallah.
Yahya
Quote:
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Originally Posted by VeyselicNumbers How many is Allah? |
I’m afraid you have misunderstood. The great Islamic Scholar Imam Abu Haneefah (rahimahullah) said in his well known tretise on the Islamic belief, al-fiqh al-akbar, that "Allah is Waahid (One), not in the numerical sense, but rather, in the sense that that He has no similars."
When we say that Allah is One. We do not mean the number one. Numbers have values and quantities; they can be added subtracted multiplied and divided. Allah is clear of all such things.
When we say that Allah is One, we are affirming that Allah cannot be divided (because He is not composed of parts), and we are affirming that there is nothing else that shares any of His attributes. Allah does not resemble anything, and nothing resembles Allah, even in small way.
Also, when we say that Allah is One, we are affirming the logical impossibility of there ever being (not in the past, nor in the future) a thing that shares in an attribute of Allah.
So, in summary, we affirm Oneness in two ways: 1- By affirming that Allah is indivisible; and 2- by affirming that His attributes belong to Him alone. And neither of these affirmations has any relationship to the number 1.
Abu Hajira bin Abdul Hamid
Brother what is the link of the Veyselic Number with revelation? Is it a theory which you have come up with or an attested method used by biblical scholars or Islamic scholars. If it is a theory then how do you intend to base a divine revelation on the standards of a theory constructed by a man?
You have stated that Veyselic numbers are in fact the arabic numerals. Even so what does the arabic numrals have to do with Quran. In Quranic Arabic, the numeral are written in wording and not in numerals. Just as it the case with Hebrew and Aramaic etc.
In fact when we study the Quran and its sciences we study the rules of "Addad and Ma’dood" which define the count and the counted. The weight given to the arabic numerals is only as much as to let the student see the bottom of the pages in Arabic Books.
Then again, what we refer to as arabic numeral werent that popular as arabic numbers in the first place. When people wrote they wrote it in wording, and when they coversed or traders used visual hand signals for the numbers..
Thus I ask, why is it that you give preference to the language of numbers over a divine revelation so much so that you are willing to judge the revelation through numbers? If it so happens that your Veyselic numbers do not prove quran to be contradiction-free would you stop believing in it as diving?
Veyselic Numbers
Right comments, right questions, thanks Allah.
*******
.I
*******
These are the right comments and right questions I was searching for, for a long time, thanks Allah. Also thank you.
The subject gets deeper, so it requires more attention.
Now, for brother Yahya’s comment:
I respect a lot to Abu Haneefah, I am also Haneefee in madhab. But if I did not misunderstood what you wrote, I have to oppose to his idea that "Allah is Waahid(One) must not be taken in numerical sense".
(Mathematics: The science of the measurement, properties, and relationships of quantities and sets, using numbers and symbols.
Numbers: Basic element of mathematics used for counting, measuring, solving equations, and comparing quantities.)
You say we affirm Oneness in two ways. I agree thoose ways you mentioned. I think, there may a third way that "Allah exists!", meaning that
"What is the count of Allah, or how many ilah(s) exist(s)?"
"1"
What I try to do is to prove is that there are some mathematical explanations to Islamic concepts. How? Let me preceede:
In binary numbers, there is only two digits: 1 and 0.
Lets read the 112/1-2. Surah(Ikhlas). It says:
Say: He, Allah, is One.
Allah is He on Whom all depend.
I am saying that, Allah can be symbolized by 1, all the others(creatures and not-created things) may be symbolized with zero.
1 is an odd number, while zero is an even number.
(http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in…012246AAdFGT9).
Lets read 51/49. Surah(Zariyat). It says:
Ve min kulli şey’in halakna zevceyni leallekum tezekkerun.
And of every thing We have created pairs: that ye may reflect.
All the creatures are pairs, i.e. they are even, not odd, like the number zero.
Now imagine that there is one and only 1("Ehad"), and many zeroes("Kesret"):
The zeroes cannot exist without the one(Samed).
The zeroes must be on the left of 1(According to Veyselic Numbers), meaning that they prostrate to Allah.
A zero burns, if it refuses to stand on the left of 1 and tries to go right (Remember, zeroes on the left disappears in "Arabic Numbers").
So in summary, I say that;
1 (which is an odd number) represents Allah,
0(which is an even number) represents creatures(including Satan),
Binary two (or decimal ten) must be represented as 01 (Or .I)
which I call Veyselic Numbers.
Yahya
Quote:
The problem with this argument is that you are including Allah within the set of "all things that can be counted." By doing so, you have implicitly declared that Allah has a similarity with countable things.
Furthermore, it doesn’t make sense because Allah is the Creator of numbers. Numbers have not always existed, but Allah has always existed. If Allah’s attribute of Oneness referred to the number one, then you would have to make one of two claims:
1- the number one has always existed, or
2- Allah acquired a new attribute after the creation of the number one.
Both of these claim contradict the Islamic belief. If you say that the number one has always existed, then you are saying that there is a partner that shares in Allah’s attribute of (beginninglessness). And if you say that Allah acquired an attribute, you are saying that Allah was imperfect either before or after this acquisition. Furthermore, this claim logically would ultimately lead to
an admission that Allah was created by something else.
Clearly, both claims are incorrect.
I suggest you correct your belief and embrace the belief of Abu Haneefah (rahimahullah), whose knowledge and understanding of Islam is far greater than this entire sunni-forum combined. Remember that Abu Haneefah met at least 2 different Companions. And remember that this entire Ummah is in agreement on the question of Abu Haneefah’s excellence. Remember also that Rasoolullah foretold the coming of the great scholar Abu Haneefah. Who are you (or me) to disagree with such a man???
Abu Hajira bin Abdul Hamid
Brother VeyselicNumbers,
Br. Yahya is correct in pointing out that Allah cannot be confined to the attribute of numerical one.
Nonetheless, you have not answered my questions. You are using binary numbers to assess the correctness of divine attribute and revelation. What is the basis for this? We do not even use science as a scale to judge the revelation, then how and why would we use numeric values or "imbeded code".
Unless you prove that Veyselic Numbers is a devinely revealed criterion for verifying a revelation, the whole theroy is useless.
You have said , "A zero burns, ." What is the basis and origin of this..
Also to asses this theory to be tested for arabic language, we also need to establish that arabic numerals are infact an origination of this Arabic Language.. Can you provide the history of arabic numerals in this respect.
Veyselic Numbers
EsSelamun Aleykum,
Brother Abuhajira, I did not forget you, I’ll try to answer all of your questions. But with your permission I will answer Brother Yahya first.
Brother Yahya says:"The problem with this argument is that you are including Allah within the set of "all things that can be counted." By doing so, you have implicitly declared that Allah has a similarity with countable things."
I thinnk I am not. I read recently that Abu Haneefah says that "Allah is a "thing", but not resembling to other things." I say that " Allah is countable, His count is 1, all other the other things count to 0 without Allah".
I continue:
Numbers are entities of mathematics, mathematics is a science(ilim), all the "ilims" belong to Allah, and Allah’s "ilim" is beginningless. When no creatures exist, the ilim of Allah existed, and Allah knew that he is the One.
"you would have to make one of two claims:
1- the number one has always existed, or
2- Allah acquired a new attribute after the creation of the number one."
I make claim 1, number 1 always existed. But. Number One is not a partner of Allah, number One is Allah Himself, which is Al-Vaahid ul Kahhar.
I do appreciate your effort to correct my faults. Please continue.
Brother Abuhajira, I did not forget you, I’ll try to answer all of your questions when I first find time. But for a quick summary:
* Theory is mine.
* Veyselic Numbers are different than Arabic Numbers only "in order".
* "Haasha" I do not say that there is contradiction in Qur’an, I do not judge revelation. I say, we humans ourselves put contradiction in the "writings", to the "pages" of Qur’an "books".
* I believe that Qur’an is divine.
* I will try to fix the "BiDi" on Qur’an "pages" until someone proves me that I am wrong.
* Salaam *
Abdul Sattar
I find this entire conversation irrelevant and find no reason to waste time on it.
Allah is One in His Essence and His Power and has no partners.
As for His attributes, they are infinite and so is the power and depth of His attributes.
1. There is no reason to assign numbers to Allah and to creatures, as 1, 2, 0, etc. Did the Prophet do it? Will it make you a better person? No.
2. Allah and His Messenger ordered us to worship Him, to correct our manners and morals, and to be good to the people and benefit His servants.
3. Pray, fast, give charity, help your neighbors, be kind the orphans, and develop a relationship with Allah by talking to Him, and leave this concocted theory that has no basis in anything and no ability to help you in the Hereafter on the Day of Judgement aside.
How much time we could spend visiting the sick, glorifying God, spending time with troubled youth, rather than wasting time assigning numerals?
God is one and there is no God except him – that all you need to know. No need to assign numbers. He assigned Himself NAMES. Call Him by His names and learn about those names. How:
I recommend you visit www.sacredlearning.com and check out the talks there inshAllah. I have found them beneficial and hope you will too.
your brother
Abdul Sattar
Abu Hajira bin Abdul Hamid
Br. Abdus Satar,
While I agree with your post 101% I feel that knowing what is the sacred learning and that which is required of us, makes an exclusion to the endavour of this brother. Numerous Muslim scholars and non scholars alike in the past have delved into new studies. Sometime these new studies helped them achieve something, while others found the falacy of their newly discovered ilm. This didnt nullify the aspect of yearning to learn newer insights into the realm of ilm which Allah himself has laid down for his slaves to wonder about. Ofcourse, with the P.S attributed to it that let not this ilm deviate you from what is Haqq..
Now for Br. VeyselicNumbers,
Okay inshAllah I will talk on the terms of what you talk to br. Yahya then…
Quote:
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Numbers are entities of mathematics, mathematics is a science(ilim), all the "ilims" belong to Allah, and Allah’s "ilim" is beginningless. When no creatures exist, the ilim of Allah existed, and Allah knew that he is the One. |
Knowledge of space is infinite, but the entity within it (lets say the earth) is finite.
So the knowledge of mathematics may be infinite but this entity within this ilm is indeed finite. Define number 1. or when we say that let x be 1, does it make x an infinite number? No, because the numeric symbol of 1 is only there to finitely descrive x to be within the limits of "one".
N.B Allah’s knowledge is infinite however compared to that infinite knowledge mathematics is a sub category of that infinite knowledge. Thus that mathematics is in affect a finite knowledge. However eventhough this finiteness cannot be measured by a Makhlooq and thus for the makhlooq it becomes infinite..
Quote:
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"Allah is a "thing", but not resembling to other things." I say that " Allah is countable, His count is 1, all other the other things count to 0 without Allah". |
Brother the statement is expressly erroneous. The translation of Fikh al Akbar says
"Allh is an entity (shay’) unlike any other entity. The meaning of [Allh being a] shay’ [unlike any other] is that He is without body, substance, or accident. He has no definition, no opposite, no equal, and no peer. "
Your used of the word "thing" and "countable" is erroneous. Since thing is that which has limits and Allah is without limits. countable again is that which has a bady, and Allah exists without a body. perhaps you might say that air is void of body and yet we have measures for it, then that is under quantifiable and not countable.
Attributing something which is finite in itself, to something infinite is incorrect. When you said that 1 is "entities of mathematics", you made it finite. Now your aim should be to establish that this entity was there before any creation, or before the makhlooq understood, what is "one (1)"…
Veyselic Numbers
Sorry, I have to give a break.
Selamun Aleykum Brothers,
I am having a mental treatment, and yesterday my doctor forbids me to write to forum for an uncertain period of time. You can continue the discussion. I will read them, and try answer them when I return back insAllah.
Just a single note: When we write 5 letters on a paper, for example Allah, those 5 letters can symbolize an entity. We do not worship to those 5 letters, but the existence it refers. Those 5 letters are not the entity themselves, only symbols. Just like that, I am saying that, when I write 1 on paper, it can symbolize Allah, because one name of Allah is El Waheed. Because 1 is just a mathematical expression of waheed.
Salaam
Abu Hajira bin Abdul Hamid
May Allah give you complete shifaa, Amin.
Please do not take our replies as an attack of any sort, its just that it is easier to discuss academically in a monotone : ) unless we are sitting face to face..
Quote:
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Just a single note: When we write 5 letters on a paper, for example Allah, those 5 letters can symbolize an entity. We do not worship to those 5 letters, but the existence it refers. |
This is an argument placed by the Hidus regarding idolatory. Every idol represents an attribute of "one God". and it is in fact that they pray to that one God and not the idol itself.
When we say Allah, indeed the word Allah does not become the Ilah itself. However the word Allah becomes the "proper noun" that when used in any language or context refers to our Khaliq ALLAH. This is not case with the number 1.
One Ishkaal could be that this analogy is not appropriate since idol is tangible and number 1 is an abstract. The detail is that we understand makhlooq in two realms. Time or space; OR Time & Space. When we see idol, then it occupies both time and space, but 1 is an abstract and time and space cannot be attributed to the concept behind "1".
The answer is, There is a slight falacy in this Ishkaal. Since idol occupies time and space and hence cannot be independent of it "1" which is written on a paper also occupies that space in the time it remains one th paper. If we were to focus only on the abstract understanding behind "1" then we will also have to compare it with the abstract understanding behind idol. In which case both will become a theory, concept or an understanding. So they both are same in the nature of their physical form as well as in the nature of their abstract form. Thus the hukm from Shariah that is on the idol when it deals with deity, will also apply to "1" when it deals with deity.
And finally again we come to the same question that you have claimed that "Allah is 1" not as in Al-Wahid" rather "1" as in a binary number. This is what causes the confusion. When you bring the 1 in contrast to 0 then automatically it becomes the 1 in context of numerical values.
lets continue..
Quote:
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Those 5 letters are not the entity themselves, only symbols. Just like that, I am saying that, when I write 1 on paper, it can symbolize Allah, because one name of Allah is El Waheed. Because 1 is just a mathematical expression of waheed. |
But this is exactly what Imam Abu Haneefa has negated that we cannot attribute the numeric symbolism of 1 to the Wahdaniya because 1 in numbers is by its very nature limited. And Wahid or Ahad as in attributes of Allah is an absolute and cannot be limited whether it be taken in chinese or Urdu; whether in science of quantom physics or science of philosophy and Kalaam.
You may understand this reasoning from a famous debate among the people Kalaam regarding "speech of Allah". This is a debate between the stance of Kalaam Nafsi Vs Kalaam Lafzi. You may check one of the Shuruhaat of Aqeeda Kitaabs on this..
Also to be able to represent "Al-Wahid" with something we need to understand the meaning of Al-Wahid.
A relavent excerpt from Al Fiqh Al Akbar of Imam Sahib and explained by Mufti Andurehman Saheb states :
Quote:
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Allah Most High is One, not in terms of the number, but in that He has no partner. “One” is |
Veyselic Numbers
Why are you starting "again" from left?
Sorry, I deleted it. I should not write to the forum right now.
Evidences that numerical 1 can represent Allah (Celle Celaluhu)
First, I want to answer all of your sayings with one sentence: "Kul huwa Allahu Ehad". If you consider it with care, it is not mentioned as "Al Ehad", but only Ehad. Now other evidences as follows;
Header: Evidences that numerical 1 can represent Allah (Celle Celaluhu):
a) 1 is read as wahid in Arabic, and one of the names of Allah is Al Wahid.
b) The answer of question "How many is Allah?" is 1
c) 1 exists, Allah also exists. (1>0) (How about 2,3,4? Refer to i) )
d) 1 is singular, each and every other counting numbers are plural, Allah is singular.
e) 1 can mean as unique, Allah is also unique.
f) Counting and measuring are different. You can not measure Allah, because Allah is infinite. But the number of Ilahs is a limited number, 1, and the only ilah is Allah.
g) 1 is half of two, that is correct. If (hasha) there were another ilah other then Allah, then Allah would be half of the two ilahs, but there are not two ilahs, so, that suggestion is false.
h) Allah has no partners, and similars. But for creatures are not equal to each other, some of them are superior to some other. The superior ones are closer to Allah than the other. For example the Caliph of Allah. Because all the superior adjectives and names belong to Allah. From this respect, since men are superior than women, they are closer to Allah. If we assign numerals to men and women, we must do that like men=1, women=0. Evidences to it are as follows: Qur’an (4-34). 1 is odd, 0 is even number. Women are even because they can bear child. The Caliph of Allah is male. in Qur’an grammar, Allah uses male gender for himself. It is used female word "Saaheebaten" in ayet(72-3).
i) Allah is Wahid, 2,3,4 > 1, how do you explain this? As follows: You have to write the number in binary form, and from right to left. Take 2. It is equal to 01. The rightmost 1 symbolizes Allah, having value two(1 times 2 to the power 1). Likewise, all the numbers can be written in binary and from right to left. There is always a 1 at the rightmost place. For example 8, it is equal to 0001 (in Veyselic Numbers).
j) 1 is odd, 0 is even. 0 is nothing when it is itself. But when it comes next to 1, it obtains a value. Also when it comes next to 1, always even numbers occur. Creatures cannot exist by theirselves, they need Allah, and also they are even(they are pairs). Only the caliph of Allah is unique, is odd. The one that needs nothing is Allah, who is Samed.
k) 1’st reads as "first". One of names of Allah, El Evvel, means The First. If there is no number other than 1, 1 is also the last, like El Ahir.
l) El Afuvv is related with sins and faults, Es Settar is related with clothings, Er Razık is related with "Rizk", likewise El Wahid, Ehad is related with numbers.
m) According to the hands that creatures are created with: The Caliph (Adem aleyhisselam) is created with two hands. Qur’an says so. So if we number the two hands like 1 and 0, we can guess the following: Iblis is created with hand number 0, the angels are created with hand number 1, and the Caliph is created with hands 1 and 0. Hand 1 is most likely the right hand(yemiyn). Before Adem(aleyhisselam) teach the angels and Iblis that Iblis has a lower degree than each and every of the angels, they did not now it. If we want to explain it in terms of numbers, there were 0 and 1’s but they did not not know which is greater than which. A person with two hands, two eyes and who is capable of distinguishing "Hayr"(goodness) and "Sher"(badness) is needed to distinguish and categorize them. That person is The Caliph of Allah, who is created with two hands. When Adem(aleyhisselam) told them their names(degrees), he said that: Angels are odd, 1, they do not have two genders, and they are in the side if "Hayr". Iblis is 0, even, Jinns have two genders(male, female), and iblis is even in that Iblis looks like "Mumin"(believer), but he is "Munafik", inside Iblis is "Kafir"(infidel), and being Kafir, in fact, his name is "Sheytan"(Satan). He said that One is greater than zero. ( 0 < 1 ). And after that angels are commanded to prostrate to Adam:
"Behold! We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam": they prostrated except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns," (Qur’an 18/50)
If we try to explain it in terms of numbers, 1’s are commanded to prostrate to 2. This solves the issue that "Why, being a jinn, Iblis, is kept responsible to an order given to angels?". The answer may be as follows: 1’s are ordered to accept greatness of 2, 2 has already dictated that 1 is greater than 0, so, 0 is also obliged to accept greatness of 2.
Quote:
If I’m not wrong, one of the names of Allah is also a number, El Wahid (and also "Ehad").
Quote:
Yes but I am stating that "1" can refer to a proper noun, which is "Ehad".
As a conclusion; When you type Ehad with letters you get "Ehad", when you type Ehad with mathematical symbols you get "1"
Quote:
Ok brother Abu Hajira, lets say that I am using number 1 according to the second meaning.
The item m) is very important for me. The Caliph is denoted by 2, which is 01 in binary Veyselic Numbers. I will say something more about this issue in the future.
I am looking forward to your precious comments.
Salaam.
VeyselicNumbers
Abu Hajira bin Abdul Hamid
I will attend to your post in time inshAllah.. I have a lots to do in real life without the binary numbers.. btw untill then one simple question..
why binary? as from its dhahir, binary could only prove duality within religion.. which we all know is not Islam.. so why binary?
Veyselic Numbers
Are you saying "La mevcude illa huwe"?
Salaam,
Duality of ilahs? Hasha no one can say or prove that. La ilahe illa Allah. That is it.
But if you say that "La mevcude illa huwe", I object it, because;
(Hicr-15/85): Ve ma halaknes semavati vel erda ve ma beynehüma illa bil hakk.
And We did not create the heavens and the earth and what is between them two but in truth.
If we accept the existence of creatures, and want to assign them a number, it is most likely zero. Because zero is nothing without a one. If 1 exists and says that zero exists, then it exists. Also zero is an even number, so that the creatures because they are created as pairs.
Also;
(51/39) And of everything We have created pairs that you may be mindful.
Pairs and opposites can be represented by 2 numbers, 1 and 0. For example male=1, female=0, day=1, night=0,big=1, small=0, white=1, black=0, right=1, left=0
Also Caliph has been created by two hands. According to me, Allah has two hands. Hand number 0, hand number 1. Allah has two hands but he is one person. Also Caliph has two hands but he is one person.
Here comes the important point; Symbolically the believers are keeping their right hand superior, meaning that they are 01, on the other hand infidels are keeping their left hand superior, meaning that they are 10 . As I said, it is symbolically.
Also all the numbers can be expressed as binary.
When we express numbers in decimal form, number ten is the ten fingers in two hands. If we are writing ten in decimal, I am insisting that we must write it as 01
It is much too hard if not impossible to convert the numbers, but it is easier to correct the numbers in Holly Qur’an’s pages to Veyselic Numbers.
I hope this thread will be a starting point insaAllah. My purpose is every time you see a number ten in Qur’an pages, it will irritate you by making you remember that Satan opposes to prostrate The Caliph.
VeyselicNumbers
Yahya Al-Khazraji
Quote:
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Remember also that Rasoolullah foretold the coming of the great scholar Abu Haneefah. |
Sallam Alaykum,
I know this has nothing to do with this forum, I got lost when the brother was explaining with the numbers… I’m not too great at math 🙂 … anyways, you said Muhammad (sala allahu alayhi wa sallam foretold the coming of Abu Hanifa (rahimahu Allah) and I couldn’t help but asking where & when?? – since I’ve never heard of this before…
Jazak Allah Khair 🙂
Veyselic Numbers
Re: Must the numbers in Qur’an be fixed?
Salaamun Aleykum,
See also:
www.islaminviewforum.com
Study of the Qur’an
Poll: Must the numbers in Qur’an be fixed?
Jazakallahu Hayr
Veyselic Numbers
Re: Must the numbers in Qur’an be fixed?
Salaamun Aleykum,
Now, do you accept that I made you "ILZAM" (Check-mate) or what?
Salaam
TDR
Re: Must the numbers in Qur’an be fixed?
So your whole argument is that numbers should be written in order of superiority.
For example ‘ten’ should not be written 10 but 01 instead. Because 1 is superior to 0 so if the 0 is on the right it implies that the 1 is lesser and is worhsipping the 0.
But if the 0 is on the left then that implies that the 0 is worshipping the more superior 1.
Brother, even if my interpretation is not quite right, I can see from reading your posts that you are trapping yourself in a man-made concept. You have defined the rules of this concept first and foremost and then you have tried to establish if Islam fits these rules. You find it doesn’t so you think you’ve found a flaw. The actual flaw is in the rules of the concept you’ve made.
This is very much what the philosophers do. They derive a man-made philosophy and accept and reject anything according to if it fits these man-made rules.
It’s like creating a trap for yourself and then walking into it. I don’t know what to advise you because it’s very difficult for people to come out of this kind of thinking having spent so long like this.
I’ll try to think of a good way to deconstruct your argument.(no offense intended btw)
TDR
Re: Must the numbers in Qur’an be fixed?
Starting right from the beginning, you made the point that Allah(swt) is One. Now the correct meaning and implication of this was clarified by the more knowledgeable brothers and I won’t go into it.
But your next point seems to be that because Allah(swt) is One then this means that the number 1 itself is a special number because of this very reason. That because of this connection, the number 1 is a Divine number and all other numbers are inferior and subservient to it.
This is the first trap you have got yourself into. ‘Divinity by association’ I would call it. I would prove this reasoning to be wrong by the fact that there are many things which are effectively one of a kind.
Mount Everest is one as there is no other Mount Everest. There are other mountains and there maybe one that looks just like it but there is only one Mount Everest. Similarly the Eiffel Tower is one. The Chichen Itza is one. You and I are one….etc.
Now just because there is one of each of these, it doesn’t mean that the number 1 inherits the attributes, nature or status of any of these things. The number ‘1’ isn’t metaphorically a mountain, tower, monument, person etc. It’s just a number. And in the same way just because Allah(swt) is One doesn’t mean that somehow the number 1 has somehow become divine.
So I think that’s the first and the major trap you’ve set yourself. If you get rid of that line of thinking I think you can see that the rest of your theory falls apart.
Veyselic Numbers
Re: Must the numbers in Qur’an be fixed?
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Because 1 is superior to 0 so if the 0 is on the right it implies that the 1 is lesser and is worhsipping the 0. |
Whorship may be a wrong word. Lets say "accept the superiorness" instead. It is like the word prostrate in the verse "Behold! We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam": they prostrated except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns," (Qur’an 18/50)
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The actual flaw is in the rules of the concept you’ve made. |
I don’t think there is a flaw in the concept that I made. Not all the man-made rules are false, right? For example the gravity rule, algebra etc.
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it’s very difficult for people to come out of this kind of thinking having spent so long like this. |
Yes I spent so much time on this and if I am wrong I need your help to come out of it.
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I’ll try to think of a good way to deconstruct your argument.(no offense intended btw) |
Thank you very much in advance, thank you for trying to understand my thougths in the first place. I believe the Satan penetrated to the Mus-hafs that we read. He continues to symbolize not to prostrate to Adam, by trying 0(zero) to pass to the right of 1, somebody has to do something about it, I had made the first step, I need help.
TDR
Re: Must the numbers in Qur’an be fixed?
Read my second post because that deals with the foundation of your theory.
And I would advise you not to come to any conclusions yet like in your last paragraph. First we have to establish whether your theory is correct which it appears not to be as stated above.
Re: Must the numbers in Qur’an be fixed?
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But your next point seems to be that because Allah(swt) is One then this means that the number 1 itself is a special number because of this very reason. That because of this connection, the number 1 is a Divine number and all other numbers are inferior and subservient to it. |
Yes exactly the way you have said. 1 itself is a special number. 1 is a Divine number because it is one of Allah’s names, El Waheed. Also in (112:2) it is said: "Say: He, Allah, is One."
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This is the first trap you have got yourself into. ‘Divinity by association’ I would call it. I would prove this reasoning to be wrong by the fact that there are many things which are effectively one of a kind. Mount Everest is one as there is no other Mount Everest. There are other mountains and there maybe one that looks just like it but there is only one Mount Everest. Similarly the Eiffel Tower is one. The Chichen Itza is one. You and I are one….etc. Now just because there is one of each of these, it doesn’t mean that the number 1 inherits the attributes, nature or status of any of these things. The number ‘1’ isn’t metaphorically a mountain, tower, monument, person etc. It’s just a number. And in the same way just because Allah(swt) is One doesn’t mean that somehow the number 1 has somehow become divine. |
I am not saying that number 1 on this page is Allah himself. What I am saying is that number 1 is one of Allah’s names. It is a symbol that reminds you "Ehad", "El Waheed" so reminds you "Allah". In the example you have given, number one inherits one of the attributes of Mount Everest, which is the uniqueness of it and count of it. So, Allah is unique. The count of ilahs is 1. The uniqueness of Mount Everest does not prevent that Allah is unique.
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So I think that’s the first and the major trap you’ve set yourself. |
Sorry, but I can not see any trap here. If I ask you to take a blank paper and write down there five letters that reminds you most the deity that we worship, you will write "Allah".
If I ask you to take a blank paper and write down there a number that reminds you most the deity that we worship, you will write 1, that is so simple. 1 is equal to waheed, 1 is equal to ehad, when you say "Allahu Waheedul Kahhar", "Kul huwa Allahu Ehad" you have to remember number 1. 1 is the numerical symbol that reminds you Allah. Extra explanations were done in the previous posts.
TDR
Re: Must the numbers in Qur’an be fixed?
I have read all your posts but my point remains that the number 1 does not inherit the attributes of anything it is used to count or describe.
For example, if I said your hair is black, the colour BLACK remains what it is which is a description colour. Nothing more. You may be Peruvian, 6 feet tall, intelligent, angry and an engineer, but the colour BLACK doesn not inherit any of these attributes from you. It’s merely a description of your hair colour and is used to describe many other things too.
In the same way the number 1 is a description of uniqueness and the count of an object. 1 Mt Everest, 1 Eiffel Tower, 1 you, 1 me, 1 cracked toilet in my garden etc.
In each of these cases the number doesn’t inherit any attributes from the objects it is used to describe. Especially the attributes of uniqueness and count because this what the number 1 already represents it doesn’t take it from any of these objects.
Using the same reasoning, we can say that the number 1 doesn’t itself inherit any of the attributes of Allah(swt). It is used for descriptive purposes only.
Veyselic Numbers
Re: Must the numbers in Qur’an be fixed?
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For example, if I said your hair is black, the colour BLACK remains what it is which is a description colour. Nothing more. You may be Peruvian, 6 feet tall, intelligent, angry and an engineer, but the colour BLACK doesn not inherit any of these attributes from you. It’s merely a description of your hair colour and is used to describe many other things too. |
You know that Allah has many names; Er Rahman, Er Raheem, El Waheed, El Kahhar, El Kareem, Es Settar, El Adl, El Hakem, El Halik, El Bari. Each of them explains the properties of Allah. For example Es Settar; it is related with only the attribute covering and clothing. It is not related directly with greatness, compassionateness, creativeness of Allah. But yet Es Settar is a name of Allah. It may resemble the BLACK in your example. The name does not have to include all the properties of all the names. Take for example Et Tevvaab, it is only related with the sins.
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Using the same reasoning, we can say that the number 1 doesn’t itself inherit any of the attributes of Allah(swt). It is used for descriptive purposes only. |
Number 1 itself inherits the uniqueness attribute of Allah. You can not convince me that number 1 does not symbolize Allah, if you can not convince me that El Waheed is one of Allah’s names.
TDR
Re: Must the numbers in Qur’an be fixed?
Well brother, I think I’ve already shown you that the number 1 is used to describe the uniqueness and singular count of something. This is what it already represents and it doesn’t inherit this from the thing it is used to describe. And the brothers have already stated the correct meaning and implication of saying Allah(swt) is One.
The number 1 symbolises uniqueness and a singular count to describe so many things with these attributes yet to say that it takes on the attributes of the object it describes is absurd (no offense). Remember, there is only one Iblis. Now does the number now become satanic? Of course not.
If you’re still not convinved I advise you to go meet a scholar in person to have it clarified. Until you do that you should not be taking action against the numbering in the Quran as the theory that you base this on is fundamentally flawed.
Ma’ruf
Re: Must the numbers in Qur’an be fixed?
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Brother Veslelic Numbers, this post is the important one. Your whole argument is based on arabic numbers being read left-to-right in contradiction to the alphabet. Well, they’re not really. Did you understand Sahih Baba’s post which I have quoted above? Once you understand that, you will realise that your theory doesn’t have any reality.
That’s it, no mystery, no need to delve into complex aqida. This is just how humans and their languanges developed.
Please brother, I ask you to acknowledge that your extreme insistence on this theory is probably attached to the mental health issues that you yourself announced in your first post. This possibility, I’m sure, has crossed your mind at least once. You need to fear God and stop this nonsense because you might be misguiding people and damaging their iman, and you would have to answer for that on the Last Day.
Veyselic Numbers
Re: Must the numbers in Qur’an be fixed?
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Remember, there is only one Iblis. Now does the number now become satanic? Of course not. If you’re still not convinved I advise you to go meet a scholar in person to have it clarified. Until you do that you should not be taking action against the numbering in the Quran as the theory that you base this on is fundamentally flawed. |
There is only one Iblis, but one of his names is not El Waheed or Ehad. So number 1 is not satanic. In fact, I assing number 0 to Satan. Because first of all, he is a creature. Also he refuses to obey to Allah’s command and became kaafir. And all the creatures are created as pairs, so that number zero is an even number. Zero itself is nothing when it is alone. It only gains a value if it obeys to pass to the left of 1 (as in VeyselicNumbers). If zero tries to pass to the right of 1, it disappears(burns). Remember Iblis is created from fire, zero wants to pass to the right of 1, so it wants to burn.
I cannot find a scholar in person for now, I find it easier for me to discuss the subject with scholars in writing in these forums. Till now, I believe I have answered all the questions, so I personally believe for now that the theory is flawless.
Veyselic Numbers
Re: Must the numbers in Qur’an be fixed?
:salaam:
First of all thank you for your very relevant questions. I was waiting for them.
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Your whole argument is based on arabic numbers being read left-to-right in contradiction to the alphabet. Well, they’re not really. |
No, my argument is not based on arabic numbers being read left-to-right. My argument is based on arabic numbers being written left-to-right. I know that arabic numbers are read right-to-left.
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Did you understand Sahih Baba’s post which I have quoted above? Once you understand that, you will realise that your theory doesn’t have any reality. That’s it, no mystery, no need to delve into complex aqida. This is just how humans and their languanges developed. |
I have already understood Sahih Baba’s post. I also think that Sahih Baba understood me well from the very first post. He says "but remember numbers are read from right-to-left, from less significant digits to more significant digits." But that is the critical point, there is a mystery in it. Let me give some historical information:
When modern numbering begin to appear, some people were writing right-to-left and some people were writing numbers left-to-right. Hindus are the father of modern numbers from 1 to 9. Arabs invented number 0. Hindus were writing from left-to-right. Arabs took the modern numbers from Hindus in years nearly 200-400 AC.
My scenario is, when they took the numbers, instead of changing the orientation to right-to-left, they mistakenly changed how they read the numbers, and they start to read right-to-left. This is the starting mistake. They should have changed the orientation of writing to right-to-left because they were writing characters right-to-left. They could not resist Hindus and they made their reading wrong. The normal and correct reading of numbers is starting from most significant to least significant(as in seventy-eight). But because they could not manage to resist Hindus and convert the numbers, they convert how they read. For example in Qur’an it says: [74:30] Aleyha Tis’ate Asher: (Over it are nineteen.)
If Qur’an uses a numbering as least significant digit first, how do I explain this as wrong? Is Qur’an wrong?
No. I explain this as follows:
"Ma esabeke min hasenetin fe minellah ve ma esabeke min seyyietin fe min nefsik."
(Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah. but whatever evil happens to thee, is from thy (own) soul.)
Allah used in Qur’an the numbering that Arabs was already using, although, I believe, it is wrong.
What I am saying is the writing of numbers in Qur’an must be changed to Veyselic Numbers, so that number ten is written as 01. Satan, somehow, in the history managed to write number ten as 10, even to the Arabs, and continued to not to prostrate to Adam (a.s).
Delving into complex aqida is not a bad thing. Qur’an says [3:7]: "Ver Raasikhune fi ilm… " (And those who are firmly grounded(rooted) in knowledge…)
If something is wrong, we cannot put a cover on the issue with "This is just how humans and their languanges developed". I do not want to change humans and their languages, but only want to change the numbers in Qur’an.
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Please brother, I ask you to acknowledge that your extreme insistence on this theory is probably attached to the mental health issues that you yourself announced in your first post. This possibility, I’m sure, has crossed your mind at least once. |
It crossed my mind many times, in fact my doctor has said it to my more than fifthy times. But I am thinking the opposite. I am thinking that the idea made me so excited that it triggered a Manic Attack. My protective treatment with doctor and medicine continues. Besides, sunniforum is the semanthic treatment.
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You need to fear God and stop this nonsense because you might be misguiding people and damaging their iman, and you would have to answer for that on the Last Day. |
I fear God. I believe this is not nonsense. I have never an intention to misguiding people and damaging their iman. In fact, if there is a fault in my iman and aqide, I would be glad if I can fix it through SunniForum. I am not doing any change in aqide, I am just trying to fix a physical mistake that is done in Qur’an pages. I want decimal ten (binary two) written as .I
Veyselic Numbers
Re: Must the numbers in Qur’an be fixed?
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…what benefit would be gained from bringing your system to the Qur’an. |
Salamun Aleykum,
Quran[29:64] This life of the world is but a pastime and a game.
So what are the sides of the game? Let me say:
Right 1 United
Left 0 United
Who are the captains of the sides?
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and all the other prophets.
Satan
Which side will be the winner? (0-1) Right 1 United is the winner
Now, the Left 0 United has scored a goal. Although the Holy Quran of muslims is written from right-to-left, the Left 0 United have put numbers into their book which are written from left-to-right, and made their book BiDirectional. When 1 and 0 come together they succeeded to put 0 on the the right. We write ten as 10(or I.) Satan(0) refuses to prostrate to Adam(1) and also refsuses to accept Allah’s(1) command, and wants to pass to the right, saying "I am superior(HAYRUN) from Adam (MINHU) [7:12]".
Now, won’t we score a goal and remove this BiDi from Holy Quran? Does not this scored goal irritate you? Don’t we have to fix Quran with VeyselicNumbers and show everyone that
RIGHT
is superior to
Left?
what benefit would be gained from bringing your system to the Qur’an? The benefit is that to show everyone which is superior?
Right
or
Left?
Adam
or
Satan?
Haqq
or
Baatil?
The system I advocate is really necessary. The Bidi cannot go on in Quran. People must differentiate their right and their left, hayr and sher, prophet and Satan. People must understand that absolutely, eventually number ten (binary two) must be written as 01 (or .I) . If zero tries to pass to the right, it will burn. Zero must prostrate to 1 and take its place on the left of 1, Satan is 0, Allah is 1, Satan must obey to Allah’s command, or else accepts to be punished by burning.
I think these are one of the very first messages of Quran, so they will help understanding Quran a lot.
Salaam
Veyselic Numbers
Should we fix the numbers in Qur’an?
Now, please spend a little time and do the shortest IQ test that I invented, it is very much related with our subject:
SHORTEST IQ TEST:
————————–
1. SELECT ONE:
A) RIGHT
B) LEFT
2. SELECT ONE:
A) 1
B) 0
3. SELECT ONE:
A) 1 is on the RIGHT
B) 0 is not on the LEFT
Salaam
Veyselic Numbers
Abdul Sattar
Re: Must the numbers in Qur’an be fixed?
assalamu alaikum,
Brother, the answer to this is very easy.
"Verily We have sent down the Quran and very We are guarding it."
This means guarding against anything that would be any form of corruption. Allah does not need you to come and save His Quran. It was perfect before you were born, and will remain so after you die. In its message, material, writing, preservation, and propagation.
This is a non-issue.
This issue has caused you to stop focusing on those aspects of our deen which are important, and become fixated upon something that is of no consequence. I advise you with sincerity – something is truly wrong with what you have become fixated upon, and is monopolzing your heart and mind.
If you wish to learn Islam, please find a scholar of established repute, and put yourself in his hands and learn the deen.
wa alaikum assalam
AS
This is the message I got from Yahoo! Answers. They tell that they deleted one of my questions:
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:00:24 -0700
From: answers-abuse@cc.yahoo-inc.com
Subject: Violation Notice Email
To: veyselperu@hotmail.com
Hello veysel_peru (veysel_peru)
You have posted content to Yahoo! Answers in violation of our Community Guidelines or Terms of Service. As a result, your content has been deleted. Community Guidelines help to keep Yahoo! Answers a safe and useful community, so we appreciate your consideration of its rules.
Deleted Question: What are the teams of the life game?
Question Details: So that this life is a game, name the teams and count the members of them, and select their captains please. My answer: ——————— Team Name: CaliphRightOneUnited, Team staff : The true believers(Muslims), who are thankful to Allah. Captain:The prophets, among which the greatest prophet, Mohammad(SAV). Team Name:SatanLeftZeroUnited Team staff: The unbelievers and "munafiks", who are unthankful to Allah. Captain: The Satan("Aleyhil-Lane") The final score: 1-0 After game ends, many players(losers) will be regretfull, but there will be no other match. You can change your team anytime before death comes near you. So use your time effectively and think well. Bye (Selam) http://www.kuran.gen.tr
If you feel this content was removed in error, please contact Customer Care and tell us why.
Regards,
Yahoo! Customer Care
Once I had read a cartoon. It was like this: "Mr. Nervous was riding his car down a slopy road. A dog starts to run towards his car, barking loudly. Immediately, he puts on the breaks, stops the car. And then shouts at the dog with the bad words he selects like this: Het! Höt! Lan! Lun! Hişt! Yav! Be!". Sorry, I could not translate them.
So I say "Het! Höt! Lan! Lun! Hişt! Yav! Be!" to Yahoo! Answers, for I could not understand what is wrong or unsafe or unusefull in my question and my personal answer to it. Is it that I expressed some truths too plainly that it is harmfull? If so, I am sorry but there is a Turkish saying :"Dost acı söyler." which means "Friends tell the truths that hurt."
So
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